Perfect Love and Perfect Union – St. Catherine of Siena with Fr. Thomas McDermott O.P.
Fr. Thomas McDermott and Kris McGregor explore St. Catherine’s view on the stages of spiritual development, which culminate in perfect union with God. They discuss how her teaching departs from traditional paradigms, emphasizing the importance of spiritual growth and love of God and neighbor; especially St. Catherine’s imagery of the Christ Bridge, where the soul experiences intimacy and peace with God.
Fr. McDermott explains Catherine’s emphasis on suffering and the importance of God’s honor and the salvation of souls. They also discuss the concept of perfect union with God, acknowledging that true union can only be fully realized in heaven.
Throughout the discussion, they tell listeners of St. Catherine’s humility and her warning against intellectual pride, emphasizing the transformative power of love and correct knowledge of God. Fr. McDermott highlights Catherine’s belief in the transformative nature of grace and the importance of virtues in becoming Christ-like. He expresses optimism about a renewed interest in Catherine’s teachings, facilitated by recent translations of her works.
Discerning Hearts Reflection Questions:
Stages of Spiritual Development: How does St. Catherine’s understanding of the stages of spiritual development differ from traditional paradigms?
The Christ Bridge: What significance does Catherine attribute to the imagery of the Christ Bridge, particularly in terms of spiritual intimacy and peace?
Embracing Suffering: Reflect on the concept of embracing suffering as discussed by Fr. McDermott. How does this align with Catherine’s teachings, and how might it challenge contemporary attitudes towards suffering?
Perfect Union with God: Fr. McDermott explains the idea of perfect union with God as presented by Catherine. How does this understanding relate to our earthly experiences and our ultimate destiny in heaven?
Humility and Intellectual Pursuit: Consider Catherine’s emphasis on humility and her warning against intellectual pride. How can we cultivate humility in our pursuit of knowledge and spiritual growth?
Transformative Power of Love: Reflect on the notion that love transforms us into what we love. How does this principle manifest in our relationship with God and others?
Relevance to the Church: Fr. McDermott highlights Catherine’s love for the Church. How can her teachings inspire a deeper appreciation for the Church’s role in our spiritual journey?
Renewed Interest in Catherine’s Teachings: In light of recent translations of Catherine’s works, how might her teachings find new relevance and resonance in contemporary Catholic and Protestant communities?
This series is based on ‘Catherine of Siena’ by Fr. Thomas McDermott
Fr. Thomas McDermott, OP is Regent of Studies for the Dominican Province of St. Albert the Great and is the author of “Catherine of Siena: Spiritual Development in Her Life and Teaching” (Paulist, 2008) and “Filled with all the Fullness of God: An Introduction to Catholic Spirituality”. He obtained a doctorate in spiritual theology from the Angelicum and taught for several years at Kenrick-Glennon Seminary in St. Louis. He crrently serves as pastor at St. Vincent Ferrer, in Chicago, IL.
St. Catherine of Siena, Part 2 – The Doctors of the Church: The Charism of Wisdom with Dr. Matthew Bunson
Born: March 17, 1347, Siena, Italy
Died: April 29, 1380, Rome
Nationality: Italian
Dr. Matthew Bunson and Kris McGregor discuss the life and teachings of St. Catherine of Siena. They highlight her maternal-like love and her profound spirituality, often likened to Mother Teresa’s. Pope Benedict XVI referred to her as a “spiritual mama” due to her embodiment of Christ’s love and willingness to suffer for others. They delve into St. Catherine’s spirituality, emphasizing her gift of tears, which Pope Benedict praised as a sign of profound sensitivity and tenderness.
They explore St. Catherine’s influence on various levels of society, from humble individuals to the Pope and entire republics. Despite her influence, St. Catherine remained grounded in prayer and humility, understanding the importance of detachment from sin and the virtues. Her writings, particularly “The Dialogue,” serve as practical guides to the spiritual life, emphasizing love, humility, and obedience.
St. Catherine’s pivotal role in urging Pope Gregory XI to return the papacy from Avignon to Rome, as well as her efforts to heal the Great Western Schism, are mentioned. Despite her failing health, St. Catherine continued to work tirelessly for the Church until her death, symbolizing her lifelong dedication and sacrifice.
Finally, they touch on the significance of Catherine’s relics and her enduring influence in both Rome and Siena. Dr. Bunson encourages listeners to explore St. Catherine’s writings and emulate her commitment to holiness and service to the Church.
St. Catherine’s Spiritual Maternity: How does St. Catherine’s life exemplify a maternal-like love and Christ-like compassion for others?
The Gift of Tears: Reflect on Pope Benedict XVI’s description of St. Catherine’s “gift of tears” as a sign of profound sensitivity and tenderness. How can we cultivate a similar depth of emotion in our spiritual lives?
Practical Spirituality: In what ways did St. Catherine balance her intense spiritual life with practical engagement in societal and political issues? How can we emulate this balance in our own lives?
The Dialogue as a Practical Guide: Explore the practical insights offered in St. Catherine’s “The Dialogue.” How can her teachings on detachment from sin, virtues, and love be applied in our daily lives?
Influence on Church History: Reflect on St. Catherine’s pivotal role in urging Pope Gregory XI to return the papacy to Rome. How can we, like Catherine, work to heal divisions within the Church and promote unity?
Endurance and Sacrifice: St. Catherine continued to serve the Church tirelessly despite her failing health. How does her example inspire us to persevere in our own challenges and commitments?
Legacy and Influence: Consider the enduring influence of St. Catherine’s relics and her impact on both Rome and Siena. How can we honor her legacy by deepening our devotion to Christ and serving others selflessly?
From Vatican.va, an excerpt from the teachings of Pope Benedict XVI
From the General Audience on St. Catherine of Siena
“A true and authentic spiritual family was built up around such a strong and genuine personality; people fascinated by the moral authority of this young woman with a most exalted lifestyle were at times also impressed by the mystical phenomena they witnessed, such as her frequent ecstasies. Many put themselves at Catherine’s service and above all considered it a privilege to receive spiritual guidance from her. They called her “mother” because, as her spiritual children, they drew spiritual nourishment from her. Today too the Church receives great benefit from the exercise of spiritual motherhood by so many women, lay and consecrated, who nourish souls with thoughts of God, who strengthen the people’s faith and direct Christian life towards ever loftier peaks. “Son, I say to you and call you”, Catherine wrote to one of her spiritual sons, Giovanni Sabbatini, a Carthusian, “inasmuch as I give birth to you in continuous prayers and desire in the presence of God, just as a mother gives birth to a son” (Epistolario, Lettera n. 141: To Fr Giovanni de’ Sabbatini). She would usually address the Dominican Fr Bartolomeo de Dominici with these words: “Most beloved and very dear brother and son in Christ sweet Jesus”.
Another trait of Catherine’s spirituality is linked to the gift of tears. They express an exquisite, profound sensitivity, a capacity for being moved and for tenderness. Many Saints have had the gift of tears, renewing the emotion of Jesus himself who did not hold back or hide his tears at the tomb of his friend Lazarus and at the grief of Mary and Martha or at the sight of Jerusalem during his last days on this earth. According to Catherine, the tears of Saints are mingled with the blood of Christ, of which she spoke in vibrant tones and with symbolic images that were very effective: “Remember Christ crucified, God and man….. Make your aim the Crucified Christ, hide in the wounds of the Crucified Christ and drown in the blood of the Crucified Christ” (Epistolario, Lettera n. 21: Ad uno il cui nome si tace [to one who remains anonymous]). Here we can understand why, despite her awareness of the human shortcomings of priests, Catherine always felt very great reverence for them: through the sacraments and the word they dispense the saving power of Christ’s Blood. The Sienese Saint always invited the sacred ministers, including the Pope whom she called “sweet Christ on earth”, to be faithful to their responsibilities, motivated always and only by her profound and constant love of the Church. She said before she died: “in leaving my body, truly I have consumed and given my life in the Church and for the Holy Church, which is for me a most unique grace” (Raimondo da Capua, S. Caterina da Siena, Legenda maior, n. 363). Hence we learn from St Catherine the most sublime science: to know and love Jesus Christ and his Church. In the Dialogue of Divine Providence, she describes Christ, with an unusual image, as a bridge flung between Heaven and earth. This bridge consists of three great stairways constituted by the feet, the side and the mouth of Jesus. Rising by these stairways the soul passes through the three stages of every path to sanctification: detachment from sin, the practice of the virtues and of love, sweet and loving union with God.
Dear brothers and sisters, let us learn from St Catherine to love Christ and the Church with courage, intensely and sincerely. Therefore let us make our own St Catherine’s words that we read in the Dialogue of Divine Providence at the end of the chapter that speaks of Christ as a bridge: “out of mercy you have washed us in his Blood, out of mercy you have wished to converse with creatures. O crazed with love! It did not suffice for you to take flesh, but you also wished to die!… O mercy! My heart drowns in thinking of you: for no matter where I turn to think, I find only mercy” (chapter 30, pp. 79-80).”
Dr. Matthew E. Bunson is a Register senior editor and a senior contributor to EWTN News. For the past 20 years, he has been active in the area of Catholic social communications and education, including writing, editing, and teaching on a variety of topics related to Church history, the papacy, the saints and Catholic culture. He is faculty chair at Catholic Distance University, a senior fellow of the St. Paul Center for Biblical Theology, and the author or co-author of over 50 books including The Encyclopedia of Catholic History, The Pope Encyclopedia, We Have a Pope! Benedict XVI, The Saints Encyclopedia and best-selling biographies of St. Damien of Molokai and St. Kateri Tekakwitha.
St. Catherine of Siena: Passion for Truth – Beginning to Pray with Dr. Anthony Lilles
Dr. Anthony Lilles and Kris McGregor discuss St. Catherine of Siena’s life and teachings. Born in 14th-century Italy during the Black Death, she dedicated herself to helping the sick and bringing peace. St. Catherine’s mystical experiences led to profound writings, emphasizing love, humility, discernment, and reliance on God’s mercy; and aligning actions with God’s will and cautioned against seeking spiritual consolations for personal gratification. St. Catherine’s insights into the spiritual life earned her recognition as a doctor of the Church.
Discerning Hearts reflection questions for this episode:
St. Catherine’s Life and Context: How does St. Catherine’s life during the Black Death era reflect her commitment to serving others amid adversity?
Mystical Experiences and Writings: What insights can we gain from St. Catherine’s mystical encounters with God and her profound writings, such as “The Dialogue”?
Virtue of Charity and Discretion: How does St. Catherine’s emphasis on charity and discretion challenge us to prioritize love in our actions and discern God’s will in our daily lives?
Humility and Self-Knowledge: In what ways can we emulate St. Catherine’s humility and self-knowledge, acknowledging our sins and their impact on others?
Surrendering to God’s Will: How can we apply St. Catherine’s teachings on surrendering to God’s will and resisting the temptation to seek spiritual consolations for personal gratification?
The Father’s Love and Mercy: Reflecting on St. Catherine’s understanding of God’s love and mercy, how can we deepen our trust in God’s forgiveness and embrace His will with humility and love?
“She is an important figure for those who see a rediscovery of prayer as the force of renewal in the Church. Because she put her devotion to Christ first, she found herself with a spiritual mission to help restore the life and unity of Christ’s body. Some of her efforts met with a little success. But as she approached her death at the age of 33, her lifetime of effort in building up the Church seemed to be in vain. Corruption, scandal, cowardice – and most of all indifference – seemed to infect the Church even more. (For more on her life, go tohttp://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03447a.htm.) Yet she never lost hope and she persevered in prayer. This is because she understood the love and mercy of God.
She was uneducated, but in 1377, by a miracle, she learned to write. Even so she retained secretaries to whom she dictated most of her thoughts. Her master work on the spiritual life is known as the Dialogues. These are conversations between her soul and God the Father. God the Father reveals his deep love for his Son and his plan to build up the Church. One of the beautiful aspects of this conversation is the Father’s explanation for how each soul can come to know Jesus.
Christ is the bridge to the Father and we cross this bridge by allowing our hearts to be pierced by what the Lord has done for us. The passion of Christ reveals at once the truth about who God is and who we are in his sight. For her, among the greatest blocks to the spiritual life is ignorance. Knowledge of God and knowledge of self go hand in hand in progressing toward spiritual maturity. But the knowing is not simply an intellectual trip. It as the kind of knowing informed by the loving affection of a real friendship. The friendship she describes in tender terms evokes the deepest joys and sorrows all at once.
The gift of tears, so central to early Dominican spirituality, is a beautiful part of this description. She presents those holy affections as the only proper response to the great love revealed in Christ crucified. These tears move us away from sin and into the very heart of God. She describes this as a journey that begins with kissing the feet of Jesus and entering into his wounded side. For her, intimacy with the Lord is always through the Cross and informed by a profound gratitude and humility.
One other beautiful feature of her spirituality is her understanding of virtue. This understanding is not quite classical in that she goes beyond the generic definition of a virtue as a good habit. Instead, she addresses a problem that is related to life in the Church. She notices that different Christians excel at different virtues. One might have a special aptitude for the art of getting on with others and is a special source of justice in the community. Another may be especially able to enter into the heart of someone enduring great difficulty and brings to the Church a particular awareness of mercy. Still another might have a profound gift of prayer. The question she takes up is why has the Father given different gifts to different members of the Body of Christ.
In the Dialogues, the Father explains to her that He has distributed his bountiful gifts in this way so that each member of the Body of Christ must rely on all the other members and at the same time each member bears a particular responsibility to support the Body of Christ commensurate to the gifts he has been given. In other words, his has distributed his gifts in a manner that disposes us to love one another. And the Father is counting on this mutual love, this genuine fellowship. It is part of His plan that as we cross Christ the Bridge we enter into communion with Him not merely individually, but together as a family.
The family of God requires a new kind of love, a love which only God can give us. A beautiful foundation is laid for what will later be understood as a “call within a call,” that particular mission each one is entrusted with in the eternal loving plan of God. On one hand, answering this call involves some suffering – just as Mother Theresa in our own time discovered. But those who endure this would not have it any other way. There is a certain joy and fullness of life that one discovers when one generously embraces the loving plan of the Father. The possibility of this joyful fulness makes Catherine’s message to the Church dynamically attractive.
For those beginning to pray, Catherine sheds light on the importance of truth, devotion to Christ and the life of the Church. These things organically hang together in her vision of the spiritual life so that growing in prayer goes beyond the merely therapeutic: it opens up the possibility of fully thriving, of living life to the full.
Anthony Lilles, S.T.D. is an associate professor and the academic dean of Saint John’s Seminary in Camarillo as well as the academic advisor for Juan Diego House of Priestly Formation for the Archdiocese of Los Angeles. For over twenty years he served the Church in Northern Colorado where he joined and eventually served as dean of the founding faculty of Saint John Vianney Theological Seminary in Denver. Through the years, clergy, seminarians, religious and lay faithful have benefited from his lectures and retreat conferences on the Carmelite Doctors of the Church and the writings of St. Elisabeth of the Trinity.
“Stages” in the Spiritual Life – St. Catherine of Siena with Fr. Thomas McDermott O.P.
Fr. Thomas McDermott and Kris McGregor explore the stages of spiritual development as an upward spiral rather than linear progression. Fr. McDermott tells us of St. Catherine’s focus on love for God and neighbor, cautioning against becoming attached to spiritual consolations.
Perseverance through dark nights of the soul highlights the importance of pure love for God. The significance of tears in spiritual experience and the imagery of the heart of Christ are described as as a window to divine love. St. Catherine sees friendship as essential for spiritual growth, emphasizing the interconnectedness of believers.
Fr. McDermott explains St. Catherine’s interpretation of the open side of Christ’s heart as a symbol of divine love and the importance of participation in that love. He encourages listeners not to feel discouraged if they don’t fully understand St. Catherine’s teachings, but to seek spiritual guidance and persevere in their journey. They also warn against spiritual gluttony and pride, advocating for humility and seeking spiritual direction within the Church.
Discerning Hearts Reflection Questions:
Understanding Spiritual Development: How does Fr. McDermott describe the stages of spiritual development as an upward spiral rather than a linear progression?
Love for God and Neighbor: What caution does Fr. McDermott give regarding becoming attached to spiritual consolations, and what does he emphasize as the true focus of spiritual growth?
Perseverance through Dark Nights: What is the significance of persevering through dark nights of the soul in Catherine’s teaching, and what does it reveal about the nature of love for God?
Importance of Tears: How does Catherine’s teaching on tears reflect different stages of spiritual experience, and what is their significance in spiritual growth?
Imagery of the Heart of Christ: What does the imagery of the heart of Christ represent, and how does it serve as a window to divine love according to Fr. McDermott?
Emphasis on Friendship: Why does Catherine emphasize the importance of friendship in spiritual growth, and how does it relate to our relationship with God?
Participation in Divine Love: How does Catherine’s teaching emphasize the concept of participation in divine love, and what significance does this hold for believers?
Seeking Spiritual Guidance: What advice does Fr. McDermott give to listeners who may feel discouraged or confused by Catherine’s teachings, and what is the importance of spiritual direction within the Church?
This series is based on ‘Catherine of Siena’ by Fr. Thomas McDermott
Fr. Thomas McDermott, OP is Regent of Studies for the Dominican Province of St. Albert the Great and is the author of “Catherine of Siena: Spiritual Development in Her Life and Teaching” (Paulist, 2008) and “Filled with all the Fullness of God: An Introduction to Catholic Spirituality”. He obtained a doctorate in spiritual theology from the Angelicum and taught for several years at Kenrick-Glennon Seminary in St. Louis. He crrently serves as pastor at St. Vincent Ferrer, in Chicago, IL.
Extraordinary Mystical Phenomenon – The Life of St. Teresa of Avila – Beginning to Pray with Dr. Anthony Lilles
Dr. Anthony Lilles and Kris McGregor discuss locutions and the experiences of St. Teresa of Avila. They explain that locutions, or extraordinary mystical phenomena, are more common than people realize but are unnecessary for salvation. Dr. Lilles points out that these experiences don’t necessarily reflect a person’s spiritual maturity and can be both helpful and potentially misleading. He provides examples of individuals who misinterpreted their experiences and warns against seeking such phenomena for the sake of bypassing the obedience of faith. They go into different types of locutions, emphasizing the importance of discernment and testing these experiences.
Highlighting the transformative power of genuine locutions, which bring clarity, freedom, and strength, helps us live a more aligned life with God’s will.
Discerning Hearts reflection questions for this episode:
Understanding Locutions: How would you explain the concept of locutions and their significance in Catholic spirituality?
Discernment and Spiritual Maturity: What insights does Dr. Anthony Lilles offer regarding the relationship between locutions and spiritual maturity? How does this challenge common misconceptions?
Distinguishing Genuine Experiences: Based on the discussion, how can one discern between authentic locutions and misleading experiences? What criteria or signs did the speakers mention?
Responsiveness to Divine Guidance: Reflect on the importance of being receptive to divine guidance in one’s spiritual journey. How can individuals cultivate openness to hearing God’s voice?
Role of Spiritual Direction: How does this episode highlight the significance of spiritual direction in navigating mystical experiences? What role does accountability and guidance play in discernment?
Integration with Scripture: Discuss the relationship between locutions and scriptural grounding. How can individuals align their experiences with biblical principles and teachings?
Personal Reflections on Prayer: Consider your own prayer life. Have you ever experienced moments of perceived divine inspiration? How do these experiences shape your faith and actions?
An excerpt from Chapter 25, discussed in this episode:
“It will be as well, I think, to explain these locutions of God, and to describe what the soul feels when it receives them, in order that you, my father, may understand the matter; for ever since that time of which I am speaking, when our Lord granted me that grace, it has been an ordinary occurrence until now, as will appear by what I have yet to say.
The words are very distinctly formed; but by the bodily ear they are not heard. They are, however, much more clearly understood than they would be if they were heard by the ear. It is impossible not to understand them, whatever resistance we may offer. When we wish not to hear anything in this world, we can stop our ears, or give attention to something else: so that, even if we do hear, at least we can refuse to understand. In this locution of God addressed to the soul there is no escape, for in spite of ourselves we must listen; and the understanding must apply itself so thoroughly to the comprehension of that which God wills we should hear, that it is nothing to the purpose whether we will it or not; for it is His will, Who can do all things. We should understand that His will must be done; and He reveals Himself as our true Lord, having dominion over us. I know this by much experience; for my resistance lasted nearly two years, because of the great fear I was in: and even now I resist occasionally; but it is of no use.
I should like to explain the delusions which may happen here, though he who has had much experience will run little or no risk, I think; but the experience must be great. I should like to explain also how those locutions which come from the Good Spirit differ from those which come from an evil spirit; and, further, how they may be but an apprehension of the understanding,—for that is possible,—or even words which the mind addressed to itself. I do not know if it be so but even this very day I thought it possible. I know by experience in many ways, when these locutions come from God. I have been told things two or three years beforehand, which have all come to pass; and in none of them have I been hitherto deceived. There are also other things in which the Spirit of God may be clearly traced, as I shall relate by and by.
It seems to me that a person commending a matter to God with great love and earnestness may think that he hears in some way or other whether his prayer will be granted or not, and this is quite possible; but he who has heard the divine locution will see clearly enough what this is, because there is a great difference between the two. If it be anything which the understanding has fashioned, however cunningly it may have done so, he sees that it is the understanding which has arranged that locution, and that it is speaking of itself. This is nothing else but a word uttered by one, and listened to by another: in that case, the understanding will see that it has not been listening only, but also forming the words; and the words it forms are something indistinct, fantastic, and not clear like the divine locutions. It is in our power to turn away our attention from these locutions of our own, just as we can be silent when we are speaking; but, with respect to the former, that cannot be done.”
Anthony Lilles, S.T.D. is an associate professor and the academic dean of Saint John’s Seminary in Camarillo as well as the academic advisor for Juan Diego House of Priestly Formation for the Archdiocese of Los Angeles. For over twenty years he served the Church in Northern Colorado where he joined and eventually served as dean of the founding faculty of Saint John Vianney Theological Seminary in Denver. Through the years, clergy, seminarians, religious and lay faithful have benefited from his lectures and retreat conferences on the Carmelite Doctors of the Church and the writings of St. Elisabeth of the Trinity.
The Nature of Spiritual Direction – The Life of St. Teresa of Avila – Beginning to Pray with Dr. Anthony Lilles
Dr. Anthony Lilles and Kris McGregor delve into the topic of spiritual direction, using insights from the experiences of St. Teresa of Avila. The significance of spiritual guidance and the challenges that can arise when seeking direction for one’s spiritual life, the importance of deep listening and discernment in spiritual direction, all highlighting the need for directors to recognize the work of the Holy Spirit in individuals’ lives.
Through the example of St. Teresa of Avila, they illustrate how effective spiritual direction can lead to greater spiritual freedom and growth, and provide practical advice for those seeking spiritual guidance.
Discerning Hearts reflection questions for this episode:
Understanding Spiritual Direction: How does this episode deepen your understanding of the role of spiritual direction in the Catholic faith?
Importance of Deep Listening: Reflect on the significance of deep listening in the context of spiritual direction. How can deep listening enhance the effectiveness of spiritual guidance?
Recognizing the Work of the Holy Spirit: Discuss the importance of recognizing the work of the Holy Spirit in individuals’ lives during spiritual direction. How can spiritual directors cultivate the ability to discern the movements of the Holy Spirit?
Learning from Saint Teresa of Avila: What insights can we glean from the experiences of Saint Teresa of Avila regarding spiritual direction? How does her journey exemplify the principles discussed in the podcast?
Seeking Spiritual Guidance: Reflect on the practical advice provided in the episode for those seeking spiritual guidance. How can individuals discern the right spiritual director or resources for their spiritual journey?
Fostering Spiritual Freedom and Growth: Explore how effective spiritual direction can lead to greater spiritual freedom and growth. How does this align with your own experiences or aspirations in your spiritual life?
Utilizing Online Resources: Consider the role of online resources like Discerning Hearts in providing spiritual guidance. How can these resources complement traditional forms of spiritual direction in today’s digital age?
Application in Personal Spiritual Life: Reflect on how the insights shared in the podcast can be applied to your own spiritual life. What steps can you take to deepen your spiritual journey and seek guidance in your relationship with God?
An excerpt from Chapter 23, discussed in this episode:
“But if I was a little distracted, I began to be afraid, and to imagine that perhaps it was Satan that suspended my understanding, making me think it to be good, in order to withdraw me from mental prayer, hinder my meditation on the Passion, and debar me the use of my understanding: this seemed to me, who did not comprehend the matter, to be a grievous loss but, as His Majesty was pleased to give me light to offend Him no more, and to understand how much I owed Him, this fear so grew upon me, that it made me seek diligently for spiritual persons with whom I might treat of my state. I had already heard of some; for the Fathers of the Society of Jesus had come hither; and I, though I knew none of them, was greatly attracted by them, merely because I had heard of their way of life and of prayer; but I did not think myself fit to speak to them, or strong enough to obey them; and this made me still more afraid; for to converse with them, and remain what I was, seemed to me somewhat rude.
I spent some time in this state, till, after much inward contention and fear, I determined to confer with some spiritual person, to ask him to tell me what that method of prayer was which I was using, and to show me whether I was in error. I was also resolved to do everything I could not to offend God; for the want of courage of which I was conscious, as I said before, made me so timid. Was there ever delusion so great as mine, O my God, when I withdrew from good in order to become good! The devil must lay much stress on this in the beginning of a course of virtue; for I could not overcome my repugnance. He knows that the whole relief of the soul consists in conferring with the friends of God. Hence it was that no time was fixed in which I should resolve to do this. I waited to grow better first, as I did before when I ceased to pray,—and perhaps I never should have become better; for I had now sunk so deeply into the petty ways of an evil habit,—I could not convince myself that they were wrong,—that I needed the help of others, who should hold out a hand to raise me up. Blessed be Thou, O Lord!—for the first hand outstretched to me was Thine.
When I saw that my fear was going so far, it struck me—because I was making progress in prayer—that this must be a great blessing, or a very great evil; for I understood perfectly that what had happened was something supernatural, because at times I was unable to withstand it; to have it when I would was also impossible. I thought to myself that there was no help for it, but in keeping my conscience pure, avoiding every occasion even of venial sins; for if it was the work of the Spirit of God, the gain was clear; and if the work of Satan, so long as I strove to please, and did not offend, our Lord, Satan could do me little harm; on the contrary, he must lose in the struggle. Determined on this course, and always praying God to help me, striving also after purity of conscience for some days, I saw that my soul had not strength to go forth alone to a perfection so great. I had certain attachments to trifles, which, though not very wrong in themselves, were yet enough to ruin all.”
Anthony Lilles, S.T.D. is an associate professor and the academic dean of Saint John’s Seminary in Camarillo as well as the academic advisor for Juan Diego House of Priestly Formation for the Archdiocese of Los Angeles. For over twenty years he served the Church in Northern Colorado where he joined and eventually served as dean of the founding faculty of Saint John Vianney Theological Seminary in Denver. Through the years, clergy, seminarians, religious and lay faithful have benefited from his lectures and retreat conferences on the Carmelite Doctors of the Church and the writings of St. Elisabeth of the Trinity.
Episode 18 – “Heaven in Faith” Day 9 Prayer 2 – “God who is rich in mercy, impelled by His exceeding love, even when we were dead because of our sins, has brought us back to life in Christ Jesus”
Dr. Anthony Lilles and Kris McGregor discussing the significance of sin and divine mercy in the context of prayer, based on the teachings of St. Elizabeth of the Trinity of the transformative power of confession, where sins are entrusted to God and forgiven through Christ’s sacrifice. Reminding us of the importance of humility, true conversion, and reliance on God alone; as well as the connection between suffering and humility in the spiritual life and suffering can deepen one’s reliance on God and lead to a restoration of blessings in a more profound way.
From “Heaven in Faith: Day 9 Prayer 2”:
“God who is rich in mercy, impelled by His exceeding love, even when we were dead because of our sins, has brought us back to life in Christ Jesus. . . .” “Because all have sinned and have need of the glory of God, they are justified freely by His grace, through the redemption which is in Christ, whom God has set forth as a propitiation for sins, showing both that He is just and that He makes just him who has faith in Him” (St. Paul).
“Sin is such a terrifying evil that in order to seek any good whatsoever, or to avoid any evil whatsoever, no sin should be committed.” “Now we have committed very many.” How can we keep from “fainting in adoration when we plunge into the abyss of mercy and the eyes of our soul are fixed upon this fact: God has taken away our sins.” He said so Himself: “I will blot out all their iniquities and I will no longer remember their sins.”
“The Lord, in His mercy, willed to turn our sins against themselves to our advantage; He found a way to make them useful for us, to convert them in our hands into a means of salvation. But do not let this diminish in any way our horror of sinning, nor our sorrow for having sinned. But our sins” “have become a source of humility for us.”
When the soul “considers deep within itself, its eyes burning with love, the immensity of God, His fidelity, the proofs of His love, His favors which can add nothing to His happiness; then, looking at itself it sees its crimes against this immense Lord, it turns to its own center with such self-contempt that it does not know how it can endure its horror.” “The best thing for it to do is to complain to God, its Friend, of the strength of its self-love which betrays it by not letting it place itself as low as it would wish. It resigns itself to the will of God, and in self-abnegation, finds true, invincible, and perfect peace, which nothing can disturb. For it has plunged into such a deep abyss that no one will seek it there.”
“If anyone should affirm to me that to find the bottom of the abyss is to be immersed in humility, I would not contradict him. However, it seems to me that to be plunged into humility is to be plunged into God, for God is the bottom of the abyss. That is why humility, like charity, is always capable of increasing.” “Since a humble heart is the vessel needed, the vessel capable of containing the grace God wants to pour into it,” let us be “humble.” “The humble can never rank God high enough nor themselves low enough. But here is the wonder: their weakness turns into wisdom, and the imperfection of their acts, always insufficient in their eyes, will be the greatest delight of their life. Whoever possesses humility has no need of many words to be instructed; God tells him more things than he can learn; such was the case with the Lord’s disciples.”
Elizabeth of the Trinity. The Complete Works of Elizabeth of the Trinity, vol. 1 (featuring a General Introduction and Major Spiritual Writings) (Elizabeth of the Trinity Complete Work) (pp. 162-163). ICS Publications. Kindle Edition.
Discerning Hearts Reflection Questions
Sin and Mercy: How does the discussion about sin and divine mercy deepen your understanding of God’s love and forgiveness?
The Role of Confession: Reflect on the transformative power of confession as discussed in the podcast. How does confession enable us to entrust our sins to God and experience His mercy?
Humility and Conversion: In what ways does humility play a crucial role in the spiritual life, according to the insights shared in the episode? How does true conversion lead us to rely more deeply on God?
Suffering and Grace: Consider the relationship between suffering and humility discussed in the podcast. How does suffering have the potential to deepen our reliance on God and lead to a restoration of blessings in our lives?
Personal Examination: After listening to the episode, take time to examine your own heart. Are there sins you need to confess and entrust to God? How can this act of confession lead to a deeper experience of God’s love and mercy in your life?
We would like to thank Miriam Gutierrez for providing “the voice” of St. Elizabeth for this series
Anthony Lilles, S.T.D., has served the Church and assisted in the formation of clergy and seminarians since 1994. Before coming to St. Patrick’s, he served at seminaries and houses of formation in the Archdiocese of Denver and the Archdiocese of Los Angeles. The son of a California farmer, married with young adult children, holds a B.A. in theology from the Franciscan University of Steubenville with both the ecclesiastical licentiate and doctorate in spiritual theology from the Pontifical University of Saint Thomas Aquinas in Rome (the Angelicum). An expert in the writings of St. Elizabeth of the Trinity and the Carmelite Doctors of the Church, he co-founded the Avila Institute for Spiritual Formation and the High Calling Program for priestly vocations. He also founded the John Paul II Center for Contemplative Culture, which hosts symposiums, retreats, and conferences. In addition to his publications, he blogs at www.beginningtopray.com .
Stages of Spiritual Growth – The Life of St. Teresa of Avila – Beginning to Pray with Dr. Anthony Lilles
Dr. Anthony Lilles and Kris McGregor explore St. Teresa of Ávila’s stages of prayer, from active meditation to mystical contemplation. Using metaphors of drawing water from a well and receiving a spark of fire from God, Dr. Lilles illustrates the journey from effortful prayer to receptive transformation, spiritual maturity, and union with God; hinting at discussions on mystical phenomena in Teresa’s life and her unwavering commitment to love and mission in the Church.
Discerning Hearts reflection questions for this episode:
Understanding St. Teresa’s Stages of Prayer: How do St. Teresa of Ávila’s stages of prayer, from active meditation to mystical contemplation, resonate with your own spiritual journey?
Metaphors of Water and Fire: Reflect on the metaphors of drawing water from a well and receiving a spark of fire from God. How do these images deepen your understanding of prayer as both effortful and receptive?
Recollection and Spiritual Maturity: Consider the concept of recollection and its significance in deepening one’s prayer life. How can cultivating recollection lead to spiritual maturity and a closer union with God?
Embracing Spiritual Dryness: St. Teresa speaks of embracing times of spiritual dryness and trusting in God’s timing. How do you navigate periods of spiritual aridity in your own life, and how does St. Teresa’s wisdom inform your approach?
Love and Mission in the Church: Reflect on St. Teresa’s unwavering commitment to love and mission within the Church, even amidst profound experiences of prayer. How can her example inspire you to integrate contemplation with active service and mission?
An excerpt from Chapter 11, discussed in this episode:
“Of those who are beginners in prayer, we may say, that they are those who draw the water up out of the well—a process which, as I have said, is very laborious; for they must be wearied in keeping the senses recollected, and this is a great labour, because the senses have been hitherto accustomed to distractions. It is necessary for beginners to accustom themselves to disregard what they hear or see, and to put it away from them during the time of prayer; they must be alone, and in retirement think over their past life. Though all must do this many times, beginners as well as those more advanced; all, however, must not do so equally, as I shall show hereafter. Beginners at first suffer much, because they are not convinced that they are penitent for their sins; and yet they are, because they are so sincerely resolved on serving God. They must strive to meditate on the life of Christ, and the understanding is wearied thereby. Thus far we can advance of ourselves—that is, by the grace of God—for without that, as every one knows, we never can have one good thought.
This is beginning to draw water up out of the well. God grant there may be water in it! That, however, does not depend on us; we are drawing it, and doing what we can towards watering the flowers. So good is God, that when, for reasons known to His Majesty—perhaps for our greater good—it is His will the well should be dry, He Himself preserves the flowers without water—we, like good gardeners, doing what lies in our power—and makes our virtues grow. By water here I mean tears, and if there be none, then tenderness and an inward feeling of devotion.
What, then, will he do here who sees that, for many days, he is conscious only of aridity, disgust, dislike, and so great an unwillingness to go to the well for water, that he would give it up altogether, if he did not remember that he has to please and serve the Lord of the garden; if he did not trust that his service was not in vain, and did not hope for some gain by a labour so great as that of lowering the bucket into the well so often, and drawing it up without water in it? It will happen that he is often unable to move his arms for that purpose, or to have one good thought: working with the understanding is drawing water out of the well.”
Anthony Lilles, S.T.D. is an associate professor and the academic dean of Saint John’s Seminary in Camarillo as well as the academic advisor for Juan Diego House of Priestly Formation for the Archdiocese of Los Angeles. For over twenty years he served the Church in Northern Colorado where he joined and eventually served as dean of the founding faculty of Saint John Vianney Theological Seminary in Denver. Through the years, clergy, seminarians, religious and lay faithful have benefited from his lectures and retreat conferences on the Carmelite Doctors of the Church and the writings of St. Elisabeth of the Trinity.
Episode 17 – “Heaven in Faith” Day 9 Prayer 1 – “God has predestined us to the adoption of children through Jesus Christ”
In this episode, Dr. Anthony Lilles and Kris McGregor discuss deepening one’s understanding of Christ’s mystery in prayer, focusing on predestination as experiencing God’s blessings in the present and trusting surrender to Jesus, with practical steps like dedicated prayer time and acts of mercy.
Silence in prayer allows for enjoying God’s presence, fostering intimacy. Prayer is about allowing God to delight in us, leading to a reciprocal experience of His love.
From “Heaven in Faith: Day 9 Prayer 1”:
“God has predestined us to the adoption of children through Jesus Christ, in union with Him, according to the decree of His will, to make the glory of His grace blaze forth, by which He has justified us in His beloved Son. In whose blood we have redemption, the remission of our sins, according to the riches of His grace, which has abounded beyond measure in us in all wisdom and prudence. . . .” “The soul now a true daughter of God is, in the words of the Apostle, moved by the Holy Spirit Himself: ‘All who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God.’” And again: “We have not received a spirit of slavery to be still led by fear, but the spirit of adoption as children in which we cry out: Abba, Father! The Spirit Himself gives witness with our spirit that we are children of God. But if we are children, we are heirs as well; I mean heirs of God and co-heirs with Jesus Christ if only we suffer with Him so as to be glorified with Him.” “It is to bring us to this abyss of glory that God has created us in His image and likeness.”
“See,” says St. John, “what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of God; and such we are. . . . Now we are the children of God, and we have not yet seen what we shall be. We know that when He appears, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him just as He is. And everyone who has this hope in Him makes himself holy, just as He Himself is holy.”
This is the measure of the holiness of the children of God: “to be holy as God, to be holy with the holiness of God”; and we do this by living close to Him in the depths of the bottomless abyss “within.” “Then the soul seems in some way to resemble God Who, even though He delights in all things, yet does not delight in them as much as He does in Himself, for He possesses within Himself a supereminent good before which all others disappear. Thus all the joys which the soul receives are so many reminders inviting her to enjoy by preference the good she already possesses and to which nothing else can compare.” “Our “possesses.” Father Who art in Heaven. . . .” It is in “this little heaven” that He has made in the center of our soul that we must seek Him and above all where we must remain.
Christ said one day to the Samaritan woman that “the Father seeks true adorers in spirit and truth.” To give joy to His Heart, let us be these true adorers. Let us adore Him in “spirit,” that is, with our hearts and our thoughts fixed on Him, and our mind filled with His knowledge imparted by the light of faith. Let us adore Him in “truth,” that is, by our works for it is above all by our actions that we show we are true: this is to do always what is pleasing to the Father whose children we are. And finally, let us “adore in spirit and in truth,” that is, through Jesus Christ and with Jesus Christ, for He alone is the true Adorer in spirit and truth.
Then we will be daughters of God; we will “know with an experiential knowledge the truth of these words of Isaiah: ‘You will be carried at the breast and He will caress you on His knees.”’ In fact “God seems to be wholly occupied with overwhelming the soul with caresses and marks of affection like a mother who brings up her child and feeds it with her own milk.” Oh! Let us be attentive to the mysterious voice of our Father! “My daughter,” He says, “give Me your heart.”
Elizabeth of the Trinity. The Complete Works of Elizabeth of the Trinity, vol. 1 (featuring a General Introduction and Major Spiritual Writings) (Elizabeth of the Trinity Complete Work) (pp. 160-162). ICS Publications. Kindle Edition.
Discerning Hearts Reflection Questions
Understanding Predestination: How does the discussion on predestination reshape your understanding of God’s plan for us, particularly in relation to experiencing His blessings in the present?
Trusting Surrender: Reflect on your own ability to surrender to Jesus in trust, especially in times of uncertainty or difficulty. How can you deepen your trust in Him?
Practical Application: What practical steps can you take to nurture your relationship with God on a daily basis, such as dedicated prayer time or acts of mercy?
Embracing Silence: How do you currently approach silence in prayer? Reflect on the role of silence in allowing God to delight in your presence and fostering intimacy with Him.
Reciprocal Experience: Consider the concept of prayer as giving God permission to enjoy your presence. How does this idea change your perspective on prayer and your relationship with God?
We would like to thank Miriam Gutierrez for providing “the voice” of St. Elizabeth for this series
Anthony Lilles, S.T.D., has served the Church and assisted in the formation of clergy and seminarians since 1994. Before coming to St. Patrick’s, he served at seminaries and houses of formation in the Archdiocese of Denver and the Archdiocese of Los Angeles. The son of a California farmer, married with young adult children, holds a B.A. in theology from the Franciscan University of Steubenville with both the ecclesiastical licentiate and doctorate in spiritual theology from the Pontifical University of Saint Thomas Aquinas in Rome (the Angelicum). An expert in the writings of St. Elizabeth of the Trinity and the Carmelite Doctors of the Church, he co-founded the Avila Institute for Spiritual Formation and the High Calling Program for priestly vocations. He also founded the John Paul II Center for Contemplative Culture, which hosts symposiums, retreats, and conferences. In addition to his publications, he blogs at www.beginningtopray.com .
Episode 16 – “Heaven in Faith” Day 8 Prayer 2 – “For love of Him I have forfeited everything.”
In this episode, Dr. Anthony Lilles and Kris McGregor discuss the theme of identification with Christ. They delve into St. Paul’s words about forfeiting everything for the excelling knowledge of Christ and sharing in his suffering. The retreat’s purpose is to become more like Christ and be so united with him that his life becomes ours, and the importance of studying Jesus and imitating him, not just externally, but by opening our hearts to his presence and listening to his word.
The realism of Christianity in facing life’s challenges but also the courage and strength found in surrendering to God’s will, which enables one to sing praises even in difficult circumstances and letting the life of Christ inform their daily lives, standing firm with courage and bravery in a world that needs strong Christian witness.
From “Heaven in Faith: Day 8 Prayer 2”:
“It seems to me that all is loss since I have known the excelling knowledge of my Lord Jesus Christ. For love of Him I have forfeited everything. I have accounted all else rubbish that I may gain Christ. What I want is to know Him, to share in His sufferings, to become like Him in His death. I pursue my course striving to attain what He has destined me for by taking hold of me. My whole concern is to forget what is behind and to strain forward constantly to what is ahead. I run straight to the goal, to the vocation to which God has called me in Christ Jesus.” That is: I want only to be identified with Him: “Mihi vivere Christus est,” “Christ is my life!”
All the intensity of St. Paul’s soul is poured out in these lines. The object of this retreat is to make us more like our adored Master, and even more, to become so one with Him that we may say: “I live no longer I, but He lives in me. And the life that I now live in this body of death, I live in the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.” Oh! Let us study this divine Model: His knowledge, the Apostle tells us, is so “excelling.”
And when He first came into the world what did He say? “You no longer delight in holocausts; so I have assumed a body and I come, O God, to do Your will.” During the thirty-three years of His life this will became so completely His daily bread, that at the moment of handing over His soul into His Father’s hands, He could say to Him: “All is accomplished,” yes, all Your desires, all have been realized, that is why “I have glorified You on earth.” When Jesus Christ spoke to His apostles of this food which they did not know, He explained to them “that it was to do the will of Him who sent Me.” Also He could say: “I am never alone. He who sent Me is always with Me because I do always the things that are pleasing to Him.” Let us lovingly eat this bread of the will of God. If sometimes His will is more crucifying, we can doubtless say with our adored Master: “Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass me by,” but we will add immediately: “Yet not as I will, but as You will”; and in strength and serenity, with the divine Crucified, we will also climb our calvary singing in the depths of our hearts and raising a hymn of thanksgiving to the Father. For those who march on this way of sorrows are those “whom He foreknew and predestined to be conformed to the image of His divine Son,” the One crucified by love!”
Elizabeth of the Trinity. The Complete Works of Elizabeth of the Trinity, vol. 1 (featuring a General Introduction and Major Spiritual Writings) (Elizabeth of the Trinity Complete Work) (pp. 158-160). ICS Publications. Kindle Edition.
Discerning Hearts Reflection Questions
Identification with Christ: How does St. Paul’s fervent desire to know Christ and share in his suffering resonate with your own spiritual journey?
Surrendering to the Father’s Will: Reflect on the idea of surrendering to the Father’s will with love and obedience, even in the face of suffering. How can you cultivate a deeper trust in God’s plan for your life?
Studying Jesus: In what ways can you deepen your study and imitation of Jesus in your daily life? How can you open your heart more fully to his presence and listen attentively to his word?
Concrete Application: Consider how you can make the concept of identification with Christ more concrete in your life. How can you embody Christ’s love and courage in your relationships and daily interactions?
Standing Firm in Faith: Reflect on the call to stand firm in faith, especially in the midst of challenges and cultural pressures. How can you be a strong witness to Christ’s life in a world that needs it more than ever?
We would like to thank Miriam Gutierrez for providing “the voice” of St. Elizabeth for this series
Anthony Lilles, S.T.D., has served the Church and assisted in the formation of clergy and seminarians since 1994. Before coming to St. Patrick’s, he served at seminaries and houses of formation in the Archdiocese of Denver and the Archdiocese of Los Angeles. The son of a California farmer, married with young adult children, holds a B.A. in theology from the Franciscan University of Steubenville with both the ecclesiastical licentiate and doctorate in spiritual theology from the Pontifical University of Saint Thomas Aquinas in Rome (the Angelicum). An expert in the writings of St. Elizabeth of the Trinity and the Carmelite Doctors of the Church, he co-founded the Avila Institute for Spiritual Formation and the High Calling Program for priestly vocations. He also founded the John Paul II Center for Contemplative Culture, which hosts symposiums, retreats, and conferences. In addition to his publications, he blogs at www.beginningtopray.com .
From “Heaven in Faith: Day 9 Prayer 2”:
