Liturgical Mysticism Archives

PSM6 – The Synergy of Liturgy – Pathway to Sacred Mysteries with Dr. David Fagerberg – Discerning Hearts Podcast

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Episode 6 – The Synergy of Liturgy – Pathway to Sacred Mysteries with Dr. David Fagerberg Ph.D.

Dr. David Fagerberg and Kris McGregor explore the significance of liturgy in the life of the church and its members. Liturgy should be central to Christian life, rather than overshadowed by other church activities. They cover the formative power of ritual and the necessity of active participation in liturgical practices.

Dr. Fagerberg draws an analogy to illustrate the complexity of theology, describing the difficulty of maintaining a balanced focus on both God and church activities. Liturgical participation, not merely as observers but as active participants, is akin to engaging in a dance with God where He leads, and we follow.

Liturgy is not just a series of actions but a profound encounter with God’s presence, requiring a conscious response from the faithful. This response is characterized by synergy, where God’s grace and human faith work together harmoniously. The conversation also touches on the Catholic belief in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, emphasizing the incarnational nature of Catholic worship.

Here are some of the topics explored in this episode:

The difference between being involved with ministry and being consciously present to the mystery of God.
The nature of synergy in regards to liturgy, and in particular the celebration of the mass.

From the discussion with Dr. Fagerberg:

“God plans to be fully, actively, and consciously present in liturgy. That’s His presence from above. What should I do in response? Maybe I should be full, active, conscious response to his presence. That would be a nice filling out of the idea of participation because participation doesn’t mean activity that I generate. Participation is my response to his presence. He’s full, active, consciously present. I’m full, actively, consciously responding.

The Greek word for that is synergy, S Y N E R G Y. And syn means “together”,enérgeia means an energy or an activity at work. Here are two examples. One of them is synergy. One of them is not synergy. Mom is coming. The apartment is a mess. You clean up that room. I’ll clean up this room. Together, they cleaned up the apartment. The second, example is in order to have fire, you must have matter, spark, and oxygen. They have to operate together. The first example is just two people doing an activity at the same time. In the second example, the one makes possible the other makes it occur. Well, synergy is that second example. It’s co operatio (co-operate), synergy. God’s graces and we faith. God energizes and we synergize. He takes the lead in the ballroom dancing and we follow. We co-operate. Well, that leads me to suppose that it’s not a matter of laity co-operating with the clergy. Rather laity and clergy should co-operate the liturgy which is occurring at this moment. And in our liturgy, the human liturgy, the liturgy of the Church, it is a cooperation with the full, active and conscious presence of God. He makes himself present. We make this response.”

Discerning Hearts Reflection Questions

Prioritizing Liturgy in Church Activities: How can we ensure that our involvement in church activities does not overshadow the central importance of the liturgy?
Active Participation in Mass: In what ways can we move from being passive observers to active participants during the Mass?
Balancing Church Involvement and Worship: How do we find the balance between being active in church life and maintaining a focus on the worship of God?
Understanding Liturgical Synergy: How can we better understand and embrace the concept of synergy in our liturgical participation?
Encountering God in the Liturgy: How do we experience and respond to God’s presence during the liturgy, both in the Eucharist and in the assembly of believers?
Liturgy as a Daily Practice: How can the principles and actions of the liturgy influence and be reflected in our daily lives?
Responsibility and Obligation in Worship: What are our responsibilities and obligations in worship, and how can we fulfill them more fully?
Incarnational Worship: How does the incarnational nature of Catholic worship affect our understanding and practice of the liturgy?

For more podcast episodes of this series visit the Pathways to Sacred Mysteries w/Dr. David Fagerberg page

David W. Fagerberg is Professor in the Department of Theology at the University of Notre Dame. He holds masters degrees from Luther Northwestern Seminary, St. John’s University (Collegeville), Yale Divinity School, and Yale University. His Ph.D. is from Yale University in liturgical theology.

Fagerberg’s work has explored how the Church’s lex credendi (law of belief) is founded upon the Church’s lex orandi (law of prayer). This was expressed in Theologia Prima (Hillenbrand Books, 2003). He has integrated into this the Eastern Orthodox understanding of asceticism by considering its role in preparing the liturgical person. This was treated in On Liturgical Asceticism (Catholic University Press, 2013). And these two themes come together in Consecrating the World: On Mundane Liturgical Theology (Angelico Press, 2016).

He also has an avocation in G. K. Chesterton, having published Chesterton is Everywhere (Emmaus Press, 2013) and The Size of Chesterton’s Catholicism (University of Notre Dame, 1998).

Here are a few of Dr. Fagerberg’s books:

PSM1 – The River of Liturgy – Pathway to Sacred Mysteries with Dr. David Fagerberg – Discerning Hearts Podcast

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Episode 1 – The River of the Liturgy – Pathway to Sacred Mysteries with Dr. David Fagerberg Ph.D.

Dr. David Fagerberg and Kris McGregor begin this 16 episode series that explores various aspects of Liturgical Theology.

Here are some of the topics explored in this episode:

What is “liturgy”?

What is “mysticism”?

The significance of baptism.

Understanding “teleology”. What’s the telos of a human being?

Understanding the connection between the interior heart personal liturgy and the exterior sacramental public liturgy

From the discussion with Dr. Fagerberg:

“… everything was directed towards a certain end, there was a telos, teleology. The telos of our watches is to tell time, the telos of a knife is to cut. What’s the telos of a human being? Deification, adoption, being taken up into the circulation of the life of the Trinity. How do you make that journey? That’s liturgical. That’s the ascetical struggle. That’s the discipline of spiritual warfare. That’s mysticism. That’s the allure theological in the way the Eastern fathers defined telógia, a union with God. The objective here is union with God. Well, if that’s the telos, the teleological end is our union with God, then everything, not just Sunday morning for 55 minutes, everything in our life and all aspects of our life, liturgical, theological, ascetical, and mystical.”

More taken from the discussion:

“There’s a book on liturgy by an Eastern Rite. Catholic named John Carbone, who takes the imagery from the book of revelation of liturgy as a river flowing from the throne of God. Oh, it’s not like, something that I’m trying to produce. Liturgy isn’t my production. Liturgy is the river of life flowing from the throne of God. And I imagined it landing first in the church in order to make this Mystical Body of Christ. It lands first in the baptismal font, but the font fills up and the river of liturgy overflows the lip of the baptismal font and it hits us.

And now it becomes our personal liturgy. Besides the public Church liturgy, there’s an interior heart personal liturgy. And I thought that’s liturgical mysticism. That’s liturgy happening at an interior mystical spiritual level. That’s an attempt to connect liturgical mysticism with the work of the Church. I surely am not suggesting that there are two tracks and some people like Church and priests and a lot of incense, and other people like to go in their room and pray by themselves. No, no, no. The interior heart personal liturgy must be connected to the exterior sacramental public liturgy.”

For more podcast episodes of this series visit the
Pathways to Sacred Mysteries w/Dr. David Fagerberg page

He also has an avocation in G. K. Chesterton, having published Chesterton is Everywhere (Emmaus Press, 2013) and The Size of Chesterton’s Catholicism (University of Notre Dame, 1998).

Here are a few of Dr. Fagerberg’s books:

PSM2 – Liturgy as the Mystical Encounter – Pathway to Sacred Mysteries with Dr. David Fagerberg – Discerning Hearts Podcast

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Episode 2 – Liturgy as the Mystical Encounter – Pathway to Sacred Mysteries with Dr. David Fagerberg Ph.D.

Dr. David Fagerberg and Kris McGregor discuss liturgy as the mystical encounter with our spouse, with our bridegroom Christ

Here are some of the topics explored in this episode:

What melody is this liturgy supposed to be creating?

What is Liturgical Asceticism?

The influence of the Desert Fathers and St. Benedict of Nursia.

Who’s liturgy should we be doing on Sunday morning?

Whose liturgy should we be doing in our lives?

From the discussion with Dr. Fagerberg:

There’s an ascetical effort and the mystical takes flight. I’ve seen pictures of birds that take lots and lots of steps. Oh, I’ve seen them take off from water. We might as well go back to baptismal imagery. Here’s the bird running along the surface of the waterfall. He’s flapping his wings and then takes off. the feet are the asceticism and the wings are mysticism.

More taken from the discussion:

The mystery of Christ, it sounds like the faithful are enabled to be mystics. So the definition finally arrives in 10 69. The word liturgy originally meant a public work, a service in the name of, or on behalf of the people. This was a Schmiemann phrase. The liturgy is the work of a few on behalf of the many. In ancient Rome, paying your taxes was called the liturgy. This was what you did for the sake of the public polis space. When the rich, sponsored a civic improvement project and made new roads, or when they sponsored a series of games in the Coliseum, not killing Christians, I presume, but chariot races, this was called their liturgy. It’s their contribution for the good of the city. Someone is doing a work to benefit others.

That’s the definition of the word liturgy. According to Catechism 10.69, which continues in Christian tradition, it means participation of the people of God in the work of God, the work of a few on behalf of the many, in this case, the work of three, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit on behalf of the human race, which stands cut off from God, alienated in death. The Father’s will is to destroy death and raise us to return a life through the Son and the Holy Spirit. And the work of salvation has unfolded from the bossom of the Father. So through liturgy Christ, our Redeemer and high priest continues the work of our redemption in, with, and through his liturgy. Through the liturgy, Christ continues his work of redemption. So who’s liturgy should we be doing on Sunday morning? Not mine, not yours. Christ’s work of redemption should be continued. Christ. When I meet my neighbor, I must be via Christ to him. She must be a Christ to me. This expands beyond the 50 minutes and the mystery, which Christ enacted by his passion, this pasta is a mystery that takes us up into it. And that’s why we’re mystics.

For more podcast episodes of this series visit the
Pathways to Sacred Mysteries w/Dr. David Fagerberg page

He also has an avocation in G. K. Chesterton, having published Chesterton is Everywhere (Emmaus Press, 2013) and The Size of Chesterton’s Catholicism (University of Notre Dame, 1998).

Here are a few of Dr. Fagerberg’s books:

PSM3 – Living Mystery in the Mundane – Pathway to Sacred Mysteries with Dr. David Fagerberg – Discerning Hearts Podcast

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Episode 3 – Living Mystery in the Mundane – Pathway to Sacred Mysteries with Dr. David Fagerberg Ph.D.

Dr. David Fagerberg and Kris McGregor discuss how “mundane” liturgical theology consecrates the world and sanctifies our daily life.

Here are some of the topics explored in this episode:

What is a “mundane” liturgical theology?

The call to holiness is here and now.

How the Church serves a Mother.

Why liturgy? Why worship? Why are we called?

From the discussion with Dr. Fagerberg:

So where are you going to practice your asceticism, not sitting in your office, reading a book and thinking lofty thoughts about the human race, but when that colleague bugs me in this office meeting, when one more time I have to admit that Elizabeth is right, but I’m too stubborn to do so overcoming those passions of pride and vainglory and ego and avarice and gluttony and, and envy and backbiting… tiny little actions, day by day, movement by movement. St. John Chrysostom has a terrific homily on Ephesians which he says that the poor that you meet in the city, in the public square, the poor are another altar on which you can make your Eucharistic sacrifice. You’re so happy to have been in the church where there’s this stone altar that was, honored and revered because it bore upon it, the body and blood of Christ. Well, here is Christ in the person of the poor. Look, how generous God is to you. He’s given you a thousand chances a day to make another liturgical act, another Eucharistic sacrifice. And just when I think I’ve satisfied my quarter, he sends another one to me, what a good and generous God we have.

More taken from the discussion:

Chesterton was asked why he became a Catholic. And his answer was because we’re sinners. And because we have a God who loves us passionately. And so this is what God has done in order to rectify the problem. I think God always had intended to bring us home to him, to let us join the life of God, to enter the perichoresis of the Trinity. It’s not like that was plan A and then after the fall in the garden of Eden, he moved on to plan B redemption is a completion of creation. Creation was the beginning of redemption. So his goal is for our sanctification, our adoption, our deification, and God gets the ball rolling with the salvation history.

For more podcast episodes of this series visit the
Pathways to Sacred Mysteries w/Dr. David Fagerberg page

He also has an avocation in G. K. Chesterton, having published Chesterton is Everywhere (Emmaus Press, 2013) and The Size of Chesterton’s Catholicism (University of Notre Dame, 1998).

Here are a few of Dr. Fagerberg’s books:

PSM4 – The Form of Liturgy – Pathway to Sacred Mysteries with Dr. David Fagerberg – Discerning Hearts Podcast

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Episode 4 – The Form of Liturgy – Pathway to Sacred Mysteries with Dr. David Fagerberg Ph.D.

Dr. David Fagerberg and Kris McGregor discuss the form of liturgy and how it can become distorted.

Here are some of the topics explored in this episode:

The experience of lukewarm prayer.

The nature of humility and worship.

What is the form of liturgy?

What is Dulia and Latria?

Liturgy comes from whom we are worshipping.

From the discussion with Dr. Fagerberg:

The odd thing is that we can sometimes be proud of our humility and our self knowledge which makes us more vainglorious I have a couple of lines that I’m proud of having written, and this is one of them. So long as there is this old Adam ego humility will feel like humiliation. And if you wake up in the morning with a Christian smile and say, dear God, I’d like to become more humble today. He’ll accommodate you. There will be humiliations. Oh, I didn’t mean to say that. Oh, I meant to hold my tongue. Oh, I’m not even, I’m going to fact like it’s humiliating. Yes. That’s what it is to carry these crosses to be nailed with Jesus to the cross is for you to die to yourself, to your seam. This isn’t ego like healthy your strength. This is like me for as myself second, or there’s anything left. I’ll take it. This is a, God is my servant. Rather than me being his servant.

More taken from the discussion:

It’s not as if God is changing so rapidly, that new material has to be inserted into the liturgy. Just to keep up with him. If the liturgy were totally or even significantly culturally dependent, then we could say that it would need continual revision for, with a changing material. The form would have to be different too, but liturgy is not an expression of how people see things. Rather it proposes instead how God sees all people.

And still more:

They are Dulia and Latria. Dulia means a homage or reverence or respect you pay dulia to distinguished persons, or even places. The Archangel Gabriel gets dulia. Saint Augustin gets dulia. Mother Theresa gets dulia. The grotto at Notre Dame gets dulia. Lartia is different from dulia. And I don’t know if I can give it a single English word. So instead I’ll give it a description. Latria is what we give God. And only God, because he is God, you can give dulia to the emperor, but you must give latria to God. And you ought not to give latria to the emperor because that would be giving latria to something other than God, to an image of God, to something lesser than God, which in Greek was the word eídolo. And that’s where the word idolatry comes from idos lateria is giving latria to something other than God

For more podcast episodes of this series visit the
Pathways to Sacred Mysteries w/Dr. David Fagerberg page

David W. Fagerberg is a Professor in the Department of Theology at the University of Notre Dame. He holds master’s degrees from Luther Northwestern Seminary, St. John’s University (Collegeville), Yale Divinity School, and Yale University. His Ph.D. is from Yale University in liturgical theology.

He also has an avocation in G. K. Chesterton, having published Chesterton is Everywhere (Emmaus Press, 2013) and The Size of Chesterton’s Catholicism (University of Notre Dame, 1998).

Here are a few of Dr. Fagerberg’s books:

PSM5 – The Marian Mystery and the Liturgy – Pathway to Sacred Mysteries with Dr. David Fagerberg – Discerning Hearts Podcast

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Episode 5 – The Marian Mystery and the Liturgy – Pathway to Sacred Mysteries with Dr. David Fagerberg Ph.D.

Dr. David Fagerberg and Kris McGregor discuss the mystical participation of the Blessed Virgin Mary in the liturgy.

Here are some of the topics explored in this episode:

What is the relationship between Mary and the liturgy of the Church?

What is Liturgical Dogma?

Why is dogma important?

What is the authentic nature of “full and active participation”?

From the discussion with Dr. Fagerberg:

There’s a relationship between Mary and the liturgy. She’s the model of the spiritual attitude with which the church celebrates and lives. The divine mysteries, any names for Mary is the attentive Virgin. She’s the Virgin in prayer. She’s the Virgin Mother and the Virgin presenting offerings. What do we do in liturgy? This is what Paul VI goes through. In this document, we seek to be attentive, to offer a prayer, to be the maternal church that gathers the world under the wings and heals its sufferings and presents offerings. Mary is a model of a spiritual attitude, which every Christian should have when he or she celebrates and lives the divine mysteries. So she’s not a replacement of the mystery. She’s the model for how we live and express those mysteries.

More taken from the discussion:

The words which are vehicles for Spirit are revelatory in Scripture, but they’re dogmatic in other forms. And dogmas are words, and you have to use the right words. The doctor is writing the prescription for you. He can’t prescribe arsenic instead of aspirin, it matters which words he writes down on the pad. It matters what terms we use in our dogma. And that’s why the Church argues over these things. You have to have the wording just right. As Chesterton has said, the Church is a lion tamer, and she’s running with tigers and lions and dragons. And everything has to be just right in order to keep the balance. One wrong slip of words, Chesterton finishes, and all the stained glass would be broken and all the Christmas trees destroyed. Yeah. As it happened, when we goofed up our understanding of the sacramentality of the church, broke windows, and whitewashed the art, you have to be very careful in how you prescribe it.

We prefer to have a kind of loosey-goosey why can’t we just say, be healthy? Why do we have to have doctors and med school and big medical manuals? Well, because it matters how strong a dose you prescribe. You have to argue about this. And sometimes the arguments have to go on for 300 years before we pinned down our correct definition of transubstantiation in order to make sense out of reality and symbol…John Carbone, again in his book, Wellspring of Worship writes The Virgin Mary is the Church as it dawns in a single person. Let’s see who knew that? Oh yeah. Second Vatican Council Lumen Gentium, the document on the Church. How should we end this with a chapter on Mary? Mary is the Church as it dawns in a single person.

For more podcast episodes of this series, visit the
Pathways to Sacred Mysteries w/Dr. David Fagerberg page

He also has an avocation in G. K. Chesterton, having published Chesterton is Everywhere (Emmaus Press, 2013) and The Size of Chesterton’s Catholicism (University of Notre Dame, 1998).

Here are a few of Dr. Fagerberg’s books:

PSM6 – The Synergy of Liturgy – Pathway to Sacred Mysteries with Dr. David Fagerberg – Discerning Hearts Podcast

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Episode 6 – The Synergy of Liturgy – Pathway to Sacred Mysteries with Dr. David Fagerberg Ph.D.

Dr. David Fagerberg and Kris McGregor discuss what is meant by full and active participation in the liturgy.

Here are some of the topics explored in this episode:

The difference between being involved with ministry and being consciously present to the mystery of God.

The nature of synergy in regards to liturgy, and in particular the celebration of the mass.

From the discussion with Dr. Fagerberg:

God plans to be fully, actively, and consciously present in liturgy. That’s His presence from above. What should I do in response? Maybe I should be full, active, conscious response to his presence. That would be a nice filling out of the idea of participation because participation doesn’t mean activity that I generate. Participation is my response to his presence. He’s full, active, consciously present. I’m full, actively, consciously responding.

The Greek word for that is synergy, S Y N E R G Y. And syn means “together”, enérgeia means an energy or an activity at work. Here are two examples. One of them is synergy. One of them is not synergy. Mom is coming. The apartment is a mess. You clean up that room. I’ll clean up this room. Together, they cleaned up the apartment. The second, example is in order to have fire, you must have matter, spark, and oxygen. They have to operate together. The first example is just two people doing an activity at the same time. In the second example, the one makes possible the other makes it occur. Well, synergy is that second example. It’s co operatio (co-operate), synergy. God’s graces and we faith. God energizes and we synergize. He takes the lead in the ballroom dancing and we follow. We co-operate. Well, that leads me to suppose that it’s not a matter of laity co-operating with the clergy. Rather laity and clergy should co-operate the liturgy which is occurring at this moment. And in our liturgy, the human liturgy, the liturgy of the Church, it is a cooperation with the full, active and conscious presence of God. He makes himself present. We make this response.

For more podcast episodes of this series, visit the
Pathways to Sacred Mysteries w/Dr. David Fagerberg page

He also has an avocation in G. K. Chesterton, having published Chesterton is Everywhere (Emmaus Press, 2013) and The Size of Chesterton’s Catholicism (University of Notre Dame, 1998).

Here are a few of Dr. Fagerberg’s books:

PSM7 – The Definition of Liturgy – Pathway to Sacred Mysteries with Dr. David Fagerberg – Discerning Hearts Podcast

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Episode 7 – The Definition of Liturgy – Pathway to Sacred Mysteries with Dr. David Fagerberg Ph.D.

Dr. David Fagerberg and Kris McGregor discuss a “thicker” definition of liturgy.

Here are some of the topics explored in this episode:

Liturgy is the perichoresis of the Trinity kenotically extended to invite our synergistic ascent into deification.

From the discussion with Dr. Fagerberg:

So conversion metanoia means to take on a new mind, to receive a new mind. Well, what could you do with a new mind? I might see things differently. I might change my values. They might be turned upside down from selfish values to kingdom values. Conversion is one step, but it’s a lifelong step. The entire life is a extended baptismal conversion. So one baptism doesn’t end something. It starts something the same way that a wedding starts a marriage. It’s it’s not the end of the marriage. It’s the beginning of the marriage. And baptism is the start of what, what do you want to call? The thing that baptism is the start of, Christianity, spirituality, your liturgical life, your spiritual warfare, your joys in the kingdom. It’s the beginning.

For more podcast episodes of this series, visit the Pathways to Sacred Mysteries w/Dr. David Fagerberg page

He also has an avocation in G. K. Chesterton, having published Chesterton is Everywhere (Emmaus Press, 2013) and The Size of Chesterton’s Catholicism (University of Notre Dame, 1998).

Here are a few of Dr. Fagerberg’s books:

PSM8 – The Life of Mystagogy – Pathway to Sacred Mysteries with Dr. David Fagerberg – Discerning Hearts Podcast

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Episode 8 – The Life of Mystagogy – Pathway to Sacred Mysteries with Dr. David Fagerberg Ph.D.

Dr. David Fagerberg and Kris McGregor discuss our baptism and the meaning of “mystagogy.”

Here are some of the topics explored in this episode:

– What is it to live the liturgy?

– What occurs at our baptism?

– What is our role true role in the liturgical celebration?

– What is the nature of “mystagogy?”

From the discussion with Dr. Fagerberg:

Liturgy is doing the world the way it was meant to be done, but I can’t do it the way it was meant to be done unless I know what I am supposed to be doing. And unless I know what God wants me to be doing, and unless I know what God intends for the world. So I have to spend some time with the blueprint drawer, with the architect, with the designer. I don’t know how this family should operate, or this marriage should operate, or this justice in society should operate unless they spend some time with the source of love and the source of justice and the source of life. So we go into the sacred in order to inhale, so that we can conduct our sacramental, ascetical, and mystical life. I live this life seven days in the world before Icome into the sacred on the eighth day, then I take a step up into heaven, so that I can see heaven around me.

For more podcast episodes of this series, visit the Pathways to Sacred Mysteries w/Dr. David Fagerberg page

He also has an avocation in G. K. Chesterton, having published Chesterton is Everywhere (Emmaus Press, 2013) and The Size of Chesterton’s Catholicism (University of Notre Dame, 1998).

Here are a few of Dr. Fagerberg’s books:

PSM9 – The Liturgical Bridge to Mystery – Pathway to Sacred Mysteries with Dr. David Fagerberg – Discerning Hearts Podcast

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Episode 9 – The Liturgical Bridge to Mystery – Pathway to Sacred Mysteries with Dr. David Fagerberg Ph.D.

Dr. David Fagerberg and Kris McGregor discuss the “stages” of the spiritual journey and the vices which hinder growth in holiness.

Here are some of the topics explored in this episode:

– Praktike (purgation), Physike (illumination), and Theologia (union with God)

From the discussion with Dr. Fagerberg:

What’s the right relationship between our asceticism and liturgical mysticism?

I thought I would write a book on liturgical acestism and then write a book on liturgical mysticism, so I could find out, but I finished them both, and I’m not sure that I’m done with it yet. I liked the key you gave in our earlier conversation that I don’t need to try to come up with a liturgical bridge to asceticism. And then another liturgical bridge to mysticism, liturgy is the bridge between those two. So if I walk the bridge of liturgy, I’ll find on the east end and the west end, the north end and the south end of this bridge, both of them, I know that mysticism awaits us at the end of asceticism, as I understood it from the tradition. And in that book (On Liturgical Ascetism), I primarily dealt with Eastern and Orthodox material. I understand mysticism to be at the end of it because when it goes through these stages of praktike, physike, and theologia, in order to arrive theologia which union with God. Well, what better definition of mysticism do I need? Um, mysticism must surely have some requirements of us in efforts of us. Well, yeah. Mysticism assumes asceticism, asceticism assumes mysticism, but if the emphasis is on a different syllable, it seems like one of them starts with the efforts required. With askesis, training, discipline effort we arrive at the mystery and the other starts with the mystery, but acknowledges that the purgation and illumination will precede this unification. I think they’re related. And I’ve got a number of metaphors for the relationship, but I don’t think enough of them yet. And they’re not entirely happy.

For more podcast episodes of this series, visit the Pathways to Sacred Mysteries w/Dr. David Fagerberg page

He also has an avocation in G. K. Chesterton, having published Chesterton is Everywhere (Emmaus Press, 2013) and The Size of Chesterton’s Catholicism (University of Notre Dame, 1998).

Here are a few of Dr. Fagerberg’s books: